Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

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Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Ignatius » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:28 pm

Straight to the point question: Do you think steroid era players, such as Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire deserve a place eventually in the Hall of Fame? Would you vote for these players? Why or why not?
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Wasaga » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:27 am

These players have no place in the Hall of Fame. These people cheated to get their records and their play ability. Given the choice, I would remove their records just so players that don't use drugs can get these records honestly.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Ignatius » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:00 am

FSF Wasaga wrote:These players have no place in the Hall of Fame. These people cheated to get their records and their play ability. Given the choice, I would remove their records just so players that don't use drugs can get these records honestly.


TBH I am not sure I agree with you on your stance. While I do respect it very much, I feel like the HOF is a representation of each era of the history of baseball as much as it is a representation of the greatest players to even play the game. On that note, I'm not sure the steroid era has ended. It would be a shame to me that a player, such as Jim Thome (never linked to steroids) or Miguel Cabera (again never linked to steroids) who have posted HOF worthy career numbers would be passed by the writers due to suspicions of other players during their era having used.

With that being said,

I also think its rather difficult to penalize someone for using a substance that wasn't banned at the time he used or played the game. In that respect, a player such as Andy Petitte, Sammy Sosa, or Mark McGwire. I also wonder about other players, such as Barry Bonds, who used or has been tied to these substances following the league ban, who have proven beyond reasonable doubt that they used these substances after already achieving career statistics worthy on entrance into the HOF (Bonds was already a member of the 500/500 club before he used; Roger Clemens had already won 7 Cy Young Awards before he used).

Either way, I look forward to hearing more comments and thoughts on the Steroid Era players and the HOF.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF EBK » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:09 pm

I also think its rather difficult to penalize someone for using a substance that wasn't banned at the time he used or played the game.


Depends on the substance. If it is something that increases a persons physical ability to play the game, it shouldn't matter when it was banned and beyond that the MLB only banned certain things when they did because they were so concerned with selling tickets that they ignored the larger moral implications. Doesn't mean the BWAA has to do the same
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF EBK » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:54 pm

Would love to see some more discussion here...
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Bri » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:07 pm

I don't like baseball. Is that what you're going for, BK? :)
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Ignatius » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:07 am

FSF Bri wrote:I don't like baseball. Is that what you're going for, BK? :)


How does one not like baseball? And yes, EBK...i'd love to get some fresh opinions on this topic. It is a highly relative subject in contemporary sports. My feelings have been expressed, so I will not comment again until I see something i'd like to further discuss.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Bri » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:59 pm

It's quite simple. Allow me to explain.

It's dumb.

Of every major sport, baseball players are the most overpaid, over rated of the lot. I would be surprised if there aren't diminishing returns... where they're paid so much that the organization or whoever makes the money in the MLB actually makes money. It's filled with cheating, drugs, corruption... I really don't need any of that out of a sport I watch for enjoyment. Way too much drama. Nothing is exciting about it. There can be no greater dictionary example of repetitive than baseball. Well, maybe basketball.

Anyway, I don't want to drag down the topic, so I'll stop badmouthing it. I know people enjoy it for whatever reason... that's fine, I don't hate you. Just please don't have the audacity to call it "America's Past Time"... it's not. That's the only thing that really gets me fired up.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Dragon » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:33 pm

I was going to say "I'm with Bri, I'm not really a baseball fan" but I think he's far surpassed my feelings on it...

I don't find it interesting to watch. I've been to a few live games, and as long as I went with a good bunch of people, they were ok. But for my tastes, the sport it's self is too slow.

As for the topic... I suppose it would depend. If these players were the best of the best when everyone was on the same drugs... then I don't personally have an issue... If they were cheating, and were taking drugs that gave them an advantage over the other players, then no.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF EBK » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:20 pm

"America's Past Time"... it's not.


It was started in the 1830's as a variation of cricket and rounders and pre-dates American football and Basketball by a half century. If it's not America's pastime, then what is?
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby Kalquien » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:46 pm

FSF Bri wrote:It's quite simple. Allow me to explain.

It's dumb.


I love baseball. I know many people do not. But please do not come into a discussion about a sport if you aren't going to answer the question and just bad mouth it. As a kid my first real sports memories were listening to Marty and Joe calling Cincinnati Reds games over the radio and I have loved it ever since. It is not the best game for TV viewing and since that is how most people consume sports it has been hard. However, there is no live sporting event that I would rather take my family to. Sure we have our share of drunks but on the whole I have found the atmosphere at a baseball game far superior to that of any other pro sport I have attended. It is also one of the only sports which is not set to an arbitrary time scale and cannot end in a tie.

As to the question at hand I would let them in. Give them their own section of the hall and let the whole sordid history be known because only by exposing the truth about what happened will anyone understand what they did and why it harmed the game that I love. We cannot deny their records simply because we do not like how they were achieved or who they usurped to get them. Just ask Roger Maris or Hank Aaron. We must let the records stand and hope that in the years to come when we clean this sport up to the degree that it is possible that others will take up the challenge of breaking these records and diminishing the impact this era has on our National Pastime.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF EBK » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:52 am

We cannot deny their records simply because we do not like how they were achieved or who they usurped to get them.


Actually, Lance Armstrong being stripped of his Tour de France titles demonstrates that sports can take accomplishments away, or at the very please put a big black * next to them.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Bri » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:23 pm

Kalquien wrote:But please do not come into a discussion about a sport if you aren't going to answer the question and just bad mouth it.


... I did answer it. If you read the two paragraphs below what you quoted... I think I explain very well why I don't like the sport.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby Kalquien » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:14 pm

FSF Bri wrote:... I did answer it. If you read the two paragraphs below what you quoted... I think I explain very well why I don't like the sport.


You did indeed talk about what you didn't like in baseball, and I respect that opinion. But the question actually posed in this forum is whether players from the "steroid era" of baseball should be voted into the HOF. I read both your prior posts, and in neither did you address that question. Hence my response.

FSF EBK wrote:Actually, Lance Armstrong being stripped of his Tour de France titles demonstrates that sports can take accomplishments away, or at the very please put a big black * next to them.


I agree. The NCAA has stripped teams of Championships (USC's 2004 CFB Championship being the most recent example), but just taking away the crystal ball doesn't change the fact that those events happened. I think we need to come clean, air out and own up to our dirty laundry. We can't pretend that the last 20 odd years of baseball didn't happen. Records were set; players were still great. But we'll never really know who was clean and who wasn't. Is it fair to keep the clean players out just because they might be linked to the scandal? I am all for putting a big asterisk on all the players and records from that era, which is why I suggested just putting them in their own room/wing and having information relevant to the scandal there as well, so people who go to the hall can judge for themselves.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF EBK » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:43 pm

But we'll never really know who was clean and who wasn't


Untrue. Players have been tested since 04' and have been found to be using PEDs

Is it fair to keep the clean players out just because they might be linked to the scandal?


Why are they linked? Because they played during the era? There are players who accomplished what they did on pure talent, training, and conditioning. They are the ones that belong in the Hall, and whose records should be recognized without an *
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Ignatius » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:07 pm

EBK what about a player like Jim Thome who has joined the 600 hr club and never had connections made to steroids, does he make the HOF? The problem with blacklisting this period is that some players will not make the Hall just by association even though they put up the numbers to be in there. Also, for some of the players that did juice back in the late 80's and through the mid 90's, what they had taken were not explicitly forbidden by the substance ban by the Players Union or the MLB. So how the heck can you now pass judgment on these guys?

Also Kal, I disagree completely with the * marking. Here's the thing: what about players like Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb that played before racial integration into the sport, should we put an * next to their names because their records were set against inferior talent?
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF EBK » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:09 pm

EBK what about a player like Jim Thome who has joined the 600 hr club and never had connections made to steroids, does he make the HOF?


Absolutely

he problem with blacklisting this period is that some players will not make the Hall just by association even though they put up the numbers to be in there


I completely agree with you, but I don't think the BWAA will. We may see a few more years over the next decade with no inductees

Also, for some of the players that did juice back in the late 80's and through the mid 90's, what they had taken were not explicitly forbidden by the substance ban by the Players Union or the MLB. So how the heck can you now pass judgment on these guys?


Just because something wasn't outlawed doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby Kalquien » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:32 pm

FSF Ignatius wrote:Also Kal, I disagree completely with the * marking. Here's the thing: what about players like Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb that played before racial integration into the sport, should we put an * next to their names because their records were set against inferior talent?


My only response to this is that you can only be judged by who you played against.

The unfairness of the Steroid era was by choice. Those that could afford it and thought it would give them a competitive advantage did so. While the players of the 'golden' era had no control over the unfairness of segregation. They could not go out and invite black players to play against them or sneak them onto their teams to gain an advantage. That is exactly what players of the steroid era could do.
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF EBK » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:15 pm

The unfairness of the Steroid era was by choice. Those that could afford it and thought it would give them a competitive advantage did so


BINGO!!!
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Re: Baseball Hall of Fame and Steroid Era Players

Postby FSF Dragon » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:22 pm

That can be said for most sports in any era, the people/teams with money will usually do better then the people or teams without it.
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