Should Romulus be destroyed?

Need help with life's little issues? Ask the FSF community!

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF EBK » Mon May 14, 2012 6:57 pm

Yeah, I especially loved the chaos caused by "Timeless" & by "Year of Hell"
FSF EBK
Retired Host

Commanding Officer - U.S.S Independence (Ret)
"Don't be a great man just be a man. Let history make its own judgments"
-Dr. Zephram Cochrane 2073
FSF EBK
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Washington, DC.

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Mariko » Tue May 15, 2012 1:41 pm

In the time frame of the Star Fleet Delta Romulans and few allies they could get took over all space that was had by the Federation, the Gamma Quadrant being the last hold out, Adm Janeway held it for a time but broke the sedge lines and found the gate way they took them to the last know place of the USS Raptor.... talk about AU time

FSF Mariko
User avatar
FSF Mariko
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 748
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:32 pm
Location: Lampasas TX

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF EBK » Tue May 15, 2012 5:12 pm

What is Janeway up to in your timeline
FSF EBK
Retired Host

Commanding Officer - U.S.S Independence (Ret)
"Don't be a great man just be a man. Let history make its own judgments"
-Dr. Zephram Cochrane 2073
FSF EBK
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Washington, DC.

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Hawg » Tue May 15, 2012 5:31 pm

FSF BK wrote:See that's just it. Under the "normal" timeline, Romulus is destroyed, but if you use a timeline where it isn't destroyed, then you kinda need to change history going all the way back to the attack on the USS Kelvin...but that was only because Nero entered the blackhole...so if it wasn't destroyed...he'd have never gone back in time....


If you say that Romulus is not destroyed, why would you need to change history going all the way back to the attack on the USS Kelvin? The fact that Nero goes back in time and changes history means everything is re-written, including possibly saving Romulus.
User avatar
FSF Hawg
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 8474
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: SpaceFleet OnLine

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF EBK » Tue May 15, 2012 5:41 pm

The fact that Nero goes back in time and changes history means everything is re-written, including possibly saving Romulus.


Only history at that stage. Remember, Pike tells him that Romulus isn't destroyed as of 2258. He also didn't go back to the past willingly, he was pulled into the past. The other thing is that the old Spock is there to, and assuming that the timeline were to be followed, there is nothing to say that the young Spock would have learned how to prevent Romulus's destruction sometime in the future
FSF EBK
Retired Host

Commanding Officer - U.S.S Independence (Ret)
"Don't be a great man just be a man. Let history make its own judgments"
-Dr. Zephram Cochrane 2073
FSF EBK
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Washington, DC.

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Hawg » Tue May 15, 2012 5:53 pm

Actually, the movie changes things even prior to the USS Kelvin being destroyed (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/incon ... inuity.htm), but that is a totally different issue.

I think Bri (or someone) pointed this out earlier, but by Romulus being destroyed, and Nero and Spock going back in time, and Nero destroying Vulcan, it makes it very likely that the experiments that resulted in the destruction of Romulus either don't happen, or they are properly prepared for it and prevent it. They do now have all of Spock's knowledge about 130 years prior to when they should have it. He could prepare the Federation for the Klingons, the Borg, the Dominion, and who knows what else too.
User avatar
FSF Hawg
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 8474
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: SpaceFleet OnLine

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF EBK » Tue May 15, 2012 5:58 pm

They do now have all of Spock's knowledge about 130 years prior to when they should have it. He could prepare the Federation for the Klingons, the Borg, the Dominion, and who knows what else too.


Yeah, but then that would raise questions as to whether Spock would violate the Temporal Prime Directive, and risk polluting the timeline to a tremendous extent
FSF EBK
Retired Host

Commanding Officer - U.S.S Independence (Ret)
"Don't be a great man just be a man. Let history make its own judgments"
-Dr. Zephram Cochrane 2073
FSF EBK
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Washington, DC.

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Dragon » Tue May 15, 2012 6:01 pm

Temporal Prime Directive BE DAMNED!!! ;-)

That's always the fun part of Time Travel, it can screw with everything, in so many different ways, and people pretty much have a response of "Oops, what can you do, its a temporal anomaly." I like a lot of the Time Travel Star Trek Episodes, even if they sometimes don't make sense.

I'm looking at trying to get a Ent Era guild sim going, that is probably the only era that none of this matters, as I believe that's before any of this.
FSF Dragon
Host: Shattered Universe | Mass Effect: Paradise Lost | Specter Defense Services
Boards Director
User avatar
FSF Dragon
FSF Host (O)
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:17 pm

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Hawg » Tue May 15, 2012 6:06 pm

Of course it raises questions. But you seem to automatically be assuming that it won't happen, no matter what. What if the Spock's mind meld, and new Spock gets the memories? New Spock may not have the same standards as old Spock. Bottom line is that there is no way to know what happens, and it would not be a huge leap to assume that Romulus is saved.
User avatar
FSF Hawg
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 8474
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: SpaceFleet OnLine

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF EBK » Tue May 15, 2012 6:12 pm

Bottom line is that there is no way to know what happens, and it would not be a huge leap to assume that Romulus is saved.


I don't think it's THAT much of a leap, and I wasn't automatically assuming, I'm just saying there isn't anything to say it would not happen. Maybe about other stuff like the Klingons or even the Borg because Spock both old and new can understand about doing that much damage. Also one would think that the temporal starfleet officers would get involved to an extent
FSF EBK
Retired Host

Commanding Officer - U.S.S Independence (Ret)
"Don't be a great man just be a man. Let history make its own judgments"
-Dr. Zephram Cochrane 2073
FSF EBK
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Washington, DC.

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Dragon » Tue May 15, 2012 6:19 pm

assuming Temporal StarFleet Officers are still around, maybe something in the changed timeline wiped them all out?
FSF Dragon
Host: Shattered Universe | Mass Effect: Paradise Lost | Specter Defense Services
Boards Director
User avatar
FSF Dragon
FSF Host (O)
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:17 pm

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Hawg » Tue May 15, 2012 6:28 pm

The whole idea of temporal officers is a bit tricky in the first place. Obviously some things they let go (ST:IV and so many others), while others they stop. And really, they only stopped things (that we saw) around the ENT time line.
User avatar
FSF Hawg
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 8474
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: SpaceFleet OnLine

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Dragon » Tue May 15, 2012 7:01 pm

there was Capt Braxton from Voyager, though I suppose you could argue he caused more problems then he fixed. First he shows up and and tries to destroy them, sending them back to the 90s ((96 LA as I recall)) later he pulls 7 of 9 to the future to catch a saboteur, who turns out to be him anyway. All that being said, I do love that Wells Class Starship they use in that episode.
FSF Dragon
Host: Shattered Universe | Mass Effect: Paradise Lost | Specter Defense Services
Boards Director
User avatar
FSF Dragon
FSF Host (O)
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:17 pm

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF EBK » Tue May 15, 2012 10:36 pm

The whole idea of temporal officers is a bit tricky in the first place. Obviously some things they let go (ST:IV and so many others), while others they stop. And really, they only stopped things (that we saw) around the ENT time line.


They do seem very selective don't they, but I think that can be explained in part because we didn't see them until well after ST:IV. First appearance of the temporal commission was in "Trial and Tribbleactions" on DS9. Nevertheless you could argue that the "first" encounter with the Borg was never supposed to happen because the Borg went back and attempted to change history and the debris found on ENT was debris from Enterprise-E's deflector dish
FSF EBK
Retired Host

Commanding Officer - U.S.S Independence (Ret)
"Don't be a great man just be a man. Let history make its own judgments"
-Dr. Zephram Cochrane 2073
FSF EBK
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Washington, DC.

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Hawg » Wed May 16, 2012 10:33 am

Doesn't matter when we first saw them.... they monitor and police time travel.
User avatar
FSF Hawg
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 8474
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: SpaceFleet OnLine

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF EBK » Wed May 16, 2012 2:51 pm

True, but they didn't "exist" as of ST IV. Sure they existed so far as the complete trek canon is concerned, but there are instances where history has sort of been well...revised because of something that happened in an episode written after another one or a movie was. Someone had an interesting series of YouTube videos with "Star Trek mistakes," and although some of them are dumb, like showing a scene where Troi tells Riker she has never kissed him with a beard before and then showing the two kissing with Riker having a beard, when in reality that was Thomas Riker, others are fairly legit
FSF EBK
Retired Host

Commanding Officer - U.S.S Independence (Ret)
"Don't be a great man just be a man. Let history make its own judgments"
-Dr. Zephram Cochrane 2073
FSF EBK
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Washington, DC.

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Hawg » Wed May 16, 2012 3:08 pm

BK, you clearly don't get it. It is Time Travel. It doesn't matter when they were created, because they monitor ALL aspects of time travel. That is why time travel can warp (pun unintended) people's brains if you think about it too long (we used to discuss the "Back to the Future" movies for hours and hours without repeating any hypothetical situations). Once time travel is possible, virtually any change to the past - or future - is also possible.

Besides that, you are arguing that it didn't exist when ST:IV happened, but they were clearly all through ENT. Last I checked, ENT was way before ST:IV so your argument doesn't even hold up anyway.

Personally, while Trek has never stated this, I think it is more like a Dr Who situation. Certain events are intended to happen, including time travel events which should not be prevented or corrected.
User avatar
FSF Hawg
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 8474
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: SpaceFleet OnLine

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Who » Wed May 16, 2012 3:41 pm

The hilarity is that you are both right but for different reasons. Yes the time police could have gone back and prevented the events of something like ST:IV. However they had not yet been conceived by the showrunners of Trek by that point, it wasn't until later that they were introduced into the Trek saga to audiences. At that point they never really indicated if they had gone back to make any alterations to events we saw in previous Trek. However considering that the actions of ST:IV proved to be vital for the survival of Earth, as well as many high ranking and important Federation personnel it's entirely likely that it would not be an event that was altered. Especially since it didn't make any vast changes to the timeline of the 20th Century (Save some whales and one person missing...and some whalers possibly gone crazy from the Klingon vessel), and any changes in the main timline of ST:IV was made by people of that time line. Effectively they tried to explain everything away nicely "how do we know he didn't invent it anyway".

Furthermore all we really need to do is look at Voyager where we were aware of the temporal police, they didn't un-do the huge computer revolution that came from future knowledge and technology.

Nor did they ever stop the Terminator from trying to kill John Conner.

Still pointing out that the temporal police didn't get involved in something before they were created by the people making Star Trek for some in-story reason is just silly. They hadn't been conceptualized yet, and Star Trek has plenty of other inconsistencies all over the place.
FSF Who
FSF CoO || Space Fleet FCO || GM: Star Wars: Paragon || GM: Star Wars: Shadow Squadron
User avatar
FSF Who
FSF Host (OO****)
 
Posts: 3487
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:14 am
Location: A Long Time Ago in A Galaxy Far, Far Away...

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF Hawg » Wed May 16, 2012 3:48 pm

But I don't think you can count what happens in "the real world". Aka, yes, they were introduced after ST:IV, but within the show, it doesn't matter. For the most part, I wish they had never been invented because then it does create inconsistencies. But I also understand why they felt it was something that might be created in the future, and why they did it.
User avatar
FSF Hawg
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 8474
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: SpaceFleet OnLine

Re: Should Romulus be destroyed?

Postby FSF EBK » Wed May 16, 2012 10:23 pm

But I don't think you can count what happens in "the real world". Aka, yes, they were introduced after ST:IV, but within the show, it doesn't matter.


Within the show it doesn't matter, but I do believe you should count the "real world" because if something hadn't been created, then it's hard to say "well this thing could have happened cause it happened 8 years after one of the movies"

However they had not yet been conceived by the showrunners of Trek by that point, it wasn't until later that they were introduced into the Trek saga to audiences.


My point exactly, however, I agree Who that I think we're both right in some sense
FSF EBK
Retired Host

Commanding Officer - U.S.S Independence (Ret)
"Don't be a great man just be a man. Let history make its own judgments"
-Dr. Zephram Cochrane 2073
FSF EBK
FSF Host (Retired)
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Washington, DC.

PreviousNext

Return to Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron